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Post by midnight on Oct 19, 2010 23:59:46 GMT -5
Hi, I'm trying to see about wiring up a TUG-8 D-104 to this radio and while there's nothing on CB Tricks about it, my HyGain V mobile mic works fairly well on it, so I looked up that mic in their database for wiring info. The HyGain mic wiring is as follows:
1- Audio in 2- Transmit 3- Shield 4- Audio out 5- RX
When I wired the TUG8 stand to it, I wired it 1-WH, 2-RED, 3-SH, 4-NC, 5-BK and it transmitted without keying on plug-in and modulated. So I switched Red and Black and got the same result. (Transmits the second the mic is plugged in, either way, capice?) Changing the relay-elect switch in the mic base did not work. Do I absolutely have to have a six-wire mic for this radio? My Cobra 142 five-pin plug has a workaround that lets me use a 4-wire TUG-8 on it, so I thought I'd give that a whirl since this is what I have around here.
Cheers!
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
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Post by Sandbagger on Oct 20, 2010 6:55:46 GMT -5
Hi, I'm trying to see about wiring up a TUG-8 D-104 to this radio and while there's nothing on CB Tricks about it, my HyGain V mobile mic works fairly well on it, so I looked up that mic in their database for wiring info. The HyGain mic wiring is as follows: 1- Audio in 2- Transmit 3- Shield 4- Audio out 5- RX When I wired the TUG8 stand to it, I wired it 1-WH, 2-RED, 3-SH, 4-NC, 5-BK and it transmitted without keying on plug-in and modulated. So I switched Red and Black and got the same result. (Transmits the second the mic is plugged in, either way, capice?) Changing the relay-elect switch in the mic base did not work. Do I absolutely have to have a six-wire mic for this radio? My Cobra 142 five-pin plug has a workaround that lets me use a 4-wire TUG-8 on it, so I thought I'd give that a whirl since this is what I have around here. Cheers! Try this: set the mic for (R) Relay switching. 1- White 2- Black & Shield 3- Red 4&5- no connection. If the mic squeals, try inserting a 22K Ohm resistor in the white lead.
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Post by cbrown on Oct 20, 2010 9:05:44 GMT -5
Sandbagger has got you covered. You'll probably need the 22K ohm resistor installed on the audio line (white wire in base) with the TUG-8 base. Try keeping the gain low first, and just turn it up until your audio is clear.
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Post by midnight on Oct 21, 2010 2:24:21 GMT -5
Another Success Story! The ol' TUG-8 seems to be working fine without too much squealing, but needed to be turned down substantially from its former Cobra 142 gain setting (which was wide open, with the Dynamike set at 2 O'clock) to keep the squeal out (now set to less than 1/4-turn from closed and very touchy with the squeal point). If I leave it alone, I don't think I'll need the resistor. No complaints about modulation and so far, everyone says it's very clear. The guy who's about 13 miles out loves this mic better than my usual TUG8 that I use on the Cobra. Go figure; I switched heads with my regular mic to test for a difference and the magic seems to be in the stand, according to him. Gentlemen, I beat my brains in, trying to figure this stuff out. Why is it that four-wire mics work on these five-pin radios (Cobra 142, and this Navaho and maybe the Hy-Gain V) but they always specify a six-wire mic instead? I know that, on some Johnson radios, there's the mic ground at D.C. potential differing from the outer case and making the trouble with mic-to-radio contact. But cross-referencing the Hy-Gain V radio mic on CB Tricks that works on this Navaho, why does the Astatic mic wiring diagram specify 1-WH, 2-RED, 3-SH/BLU, 4- NC, 5-BK? That doesn't work at all. If you fellas can shed some light on this, maybe the (rapidly-dimming Christmas-tree) bulb will go off over my head here. Anyway, again you both have been extremely helpful and your advice has been spot-on. Watch for my next pester-some post on wiring a vintage four-wire Turner +2 SSB base mic to the Cobra 142 (I really hope that's possible; it sounds like a great match). Then there's the very clean Johnson 250 50th Anniversary rig that I'd like to wire a G-stand D-104 up to. All to be posted as you have the patience to deal with them. Let me know at what intervals I should post them, thanks! Thanks again!
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Post by midnight on Oct 21, 2010 2:40:59 GMT -5
Post-Script: With about 40 W RMS rolling out the back end, a friend about 6 miles away says this Navaho sounds as good or maybe better than my 68 R/T Golden Eagle using the same er, accessory. Not bad for less than a $50 investment. I still like my Browning better; the RX rules and the cool factor is all over the Navaho. Still...
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
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Post by Sandbagger on Oct 21, 2010 6:42:10 GMT -5
Another Success Story! The ol' TUG-8 seems to be working fine without too much squealing, but needed to be turned down substantially from its former Cobra 142 gain setting (which was wide open, with the Dynamike set at 2 O'clock) to keep the squeal out (now set to less than 1/4-turn from closed and very touchy with the squeal point). If I leave it alone, I don't think I'll need the resistor. No complaints about modulation and so far, everyone says it's very clear. The guy who's about 13 miles out loves this mic better than my usual TUG8 that I use on the Cobra. Go figure; I switched heads with my regular mic to test for a difference and the magic seems to be in the stand, according to him. Gentlemen, I beat my brains in, trying to figure this stuff out. Why is it that four-wire mics work on these five-pin radios (Cobra 142, and this Navaho and maybe the Hy-Gain V) but they always specify a six-wire mic instead? I know that, on some Johnson radios, there's the mic ground at D.C. potential differing from the outer case and making the trouble with mic-to-radio contact. But cross-referencing the Hy-Gain V radio mic on CB Tricks that works on this Navaho, why does the Astatic mic wiring diagram specify 1-WH, 2-RED, 3-SH/BLU, 4- NC, 5-BK? That doesn't work at all. If you fellas can shed some light on this, maybe the (rapidly-dimming Christmas-tree) bulb will go off over my head here. Anyway, again you both have been extremely helpful and your advice has been spot-on. Watch for my next pester-some post on wiring a vintage four-wire Turner +2 SSB base mic to the Cobra 142 (I really hope that's possible; it sounds like a great match). Then there's the very clean Johnson 250 50th Anniversary rig that I'd like to wire a G-stand D-104 up to. All to be posted as you have the patience to deal with them. Let me know at what intervals I should post them, thanks! Thanks again! Quick tip: The 4 wire Turners wire the same as 4 wire Astatic except the Red and Black wires are reversed. One thing to remember about these 5 pin radios working with 4 wire mics, not all the pins are used, or 2 are shared grounds and in the case of the Navaho, it's a relay switched radio and 2 pins are not used. That being said, not all 5 pin radios (or even some 4 pin radios) will work properly with 4 wire Turner and Astatic base mics, because they short the white wire to shield on receive which can play havoc on certain Cybernet chassis radios. The 6 wire mics open the white lead on receive which is what you need in this case, but it's not about the number of switching wires. Ironically, Turner 4 wire mobile mics do not short the white lead to ground on receive so they will work fine. But it's a real head scratcher for people who don't know all this, as they ponder why their mobile +2 works fine but the base +2 does not, even though they're wired the same....
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Post by cbrown on Oct 21, 2010 9:15:57 GMT -5
The ol' TUG-8 seems to be working fine without too much squealing, but needed to be turned down substantially from its former Cobra 142 gain setting (which was wide open, with the Dynamike set at 2 O'clock) to keep the squeal out (now set to less than 1/4-turn from closed and very touchy with the squeal point). If I leave it alone, I don't think I'll need the resistor. Probably not. You should be fine. Gentlemen, I beat my brains in, trying to figure this stuff out. Why is it that four-wire mics work on these five-pin radios (Cobra 142, and this Navaho and maybe the Hy-Gain V) but they always specify a six-wire mic instead? But cross-referencing the Hy-Gain V radio mic on CB Tricks that works on this Navaho, why does the Astatic mic wiring diagram specify 1-WH, 2-RED, 3-SH/BLU, 4- NC, 5-BK? That doesn't work at all. If you fellas can shed some light on this, maybe the (rapidly-dimming Christmas-tree) bulb will go off over my head here. As Sandbagger said, not all five pin microphone connectors use all of the five pins. As for CBtricks, I guess they have it wrong. Astatic's book for the TRC-40 shows only three pins used, as does Turner's. Using a six wire microphone basically guarantees that you'll be able to hook up the microphone to your radio, which is why most all of the microphone manufacturers' went to that configuration. Plus that means a lot less inventory to carry if you're running a radio shop. Anyway, again you both have been extremely helpful and your advice has been spot-on. Watch for my next pester-some post on wiring a vintage four-wire Turner +2 SSB base mic to the Cobra 142 (I really hope that's possible; it sounds like a great match). Then there's the very clean Johnson 250 50th Anniversary rig that I'd like to wire a G-stand D-104 up to. All to be posted as you have the patience to deal with them. Let me know at what intervals I should post them, thanks! You can easily wire your Turner +2 microphone to your Cobra 142, but your are out of luck on the G Stand Astatic. The 250 requires a 6 wire microphone, and you cannot touch the microphone to the radio case because of the ground differential between the two. For the Turner +2 to the Cobra 142, wire it like this: Slide switch on base of +2 towards the rear of the microphone (where the cord is attached) to set the microphone to electronic switching. Then: Pin 1 - White Pin 2 - Shield Pin 3 - Red Pin 4 - No connection Pin 5 - Black You don't need to connect pin 4, although there have been times that I have run a jumper from pin 2 to pin 4 just so anyone opening the mic plug would feel better. If you have any other questions just ask away. That's why we are here.
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Post by midnight on Oct 22, 2010 23:33:57 GMT -5
That SSB +2 base mic arrangement does indeed switch the Cobra 142, but something seems amiss with the modulation. I first checked the battery, which needed replacing and with a fresh 9V in there, it only mods about 80% with the gain on both the mic and the radio's Dynamike wide open.
By comparison, the TUG8 I generally use on that radio typically sees the Dynamike at about 2 O'clock and the gain screw on the TUG8 stand opened about 3/4-turn with good results. This radio is not clipped but the TUG8 will get it to readily swing to 100% modulation per the integral meter at those more-restrained settings.
Think the SSB +2 element is failing, or maybe a resistor in the mic's amp board has changed values? I know nothing about this mic's history, except that it came wired to a DIN 5-pin plug.
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Post by cbrown on Oct 23, 2010 23:29:25 GMT -5
You say you're getting 80% out with the gain control on both the radio and the microphone turned up, but how is the audio?
I'd guess the element is bad, especially if the audio is bad. The preamp could be shot also. Let me know how it sounds.
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Post by midnight on Oct 24, 2010 1:05:46 GMT -5
Reports are that I can hardly be heard on the +2, even when near-shouting close to the mic. So I imagine that it's what you say. I can't determine exactly which element is in the +2 desk mic (assuming ceramic for SSB).
The old Turner mic manual tells you to check for functionality by testing for an AC voltage between the white wire and Shield, looking for 1 volt AC RMS while whistling. I tried it and got .05V that did not change when whistling.
BTW, I have two Turner Model 254 mics. One is wired for my Browning S-Nine AM rig and came with it when I bought it, and the other has a staggered four-pin male plug on it; I bought it cheap from an older ham. I can't tell how you can find out which element these mics have, since the wiring sticker lists both the J 254X Crystal and the J 254C Ceramic model numbers. Neither unamplified mic has the little metal emblem in the middle of the element grille. Maybe you guys know. I suppose the Browning one at least is crystal, since it is AM only.
I have removed the elements from the ham's 254 and my +2. The +2 one is stamped "35599-1" (or "-I") and has a little board (preamp?) soldered to the back of it. The unamplified model is not marked and just has a sticker on the back marking the green wire with a negative symbol.
Also, since I am responsible for veering us WAAAAAY off topic in this thread and the wiring info for the Turner +2-to-Cobra-142 is correct and valuable, should we ask a moderator to pull this Cobra stub out of the thread and put it in a new post? Sorry 'bout that! I'm full of questions and both of you gentlemen are full of good answers.
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Post by cbrown on Oct 26, 2010 8:55:44 GMT -5
On the 250 Turner series, it depended on the model # you bought to determine the element that can with it.
On the +2, they came with ceramic elements. With replacing the element on the +2, you can either try a replacement ceramic element or look for another +2 on an auction site that might still be good.
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Post by Tombstone (R.I.P.) on Oct 27, 2010 17:13:36 GMT -5
Yeah, all of these microphone posts actually should be moved to the microphone section, it's no biggie and I'm not sure how to do it anyway. I always liked the old Turner +2 desk mics, I like the brassy sound from the amplified ceramic elements. Like cbrown says, the element is probably bad but with a mic that old it could be preamp problems or both. I have a +2 here that someone left a dead battery in and the corrosion is so bad the I'm going to have to make a new battery holder and rivet it in. The corosion also ruined the battery connector but didn't spread near the amp board. Before I go to the trouble of making a battery holder I'll replace the connector and find out if the mic is allright. The outside of it is almost pristine. I have a question: why are some of the PTT bars marked single sideband and some are marked transistorized? I've had a few of each and they seem to work the same. I forget if the cord wiring is the same, probably is?? As far as the D-104 wiring, I would still put the resistor on the white wire. That way you can bring the mic gain on the radio up to where it should be and run the mic with the preamp turned up about 1/4 inch, might sound even better with the adustments not so critical and a lot less chance of squealing, but it's your ball game, just a suggestion.
Tombstone
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
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Post by Sandbagger on Oct 28, 2010 7:03:42 GMT -5
Yeah, all of these microphone posts actually should be moved to the microphone section, it's no biggie and I'm not sure how to do it anyway. I always liked the old Turner +2 desk mics, I like the brassy sound from the amplified ceramic elements. Like cbrown says, the element is probably bad but with a mic that old it could be preamp problems or both. I have a +2 here that someone left a dead battery in and the corrosion is so bad the I'm going to have to make a new battery holder and rivet it in. The corosion also ruined the battery connector but didn't spread near the amp board. Before I go to the trouble of making a battery holder I'll replace the connector and find out if the mic is allright. The outside of it is almost pristine. I have a question: why are some of the PTT bars marked single sideband and some are marked transistorized? I've had a few of each and they seem to work the same. I forget if the cord wiring is the same, probably is?? As far as the D-104 wiring, I would still put the resistor on the white wire. That way you can bring the mic gain on the radio up to where it should be and run the mic with the preamp turned up about 1/4 inch, might sound even better with the adustments not so critical and a lot less chance of squealing, but it's your ball game, just a suggestion. Tombstone The Turner +2 desk mic went through a few revisions (cost reductions?) during its long life. My first one had a 2 transistor preamp that slid up inside the "neck" of the mic. A newer one I had, had a one transistor preamp board attached to the back of the element. I'm guessing that the lettering on the PTT bars are reflective of the particular revision of the mic.
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Post by cbrown on Oct 28, 2010 10:16:34 GMT -5
I have three Turner +2 microphones, 2 still NIB and one I use on my RCI-2995. They all have the SSB +2 Transistorized pushbar. I have seen +2 microphones with just TURNER on the pushbar. I believe those are newer, as I remember seeing old +2 ads with the SSB +2 Transistorized pushbar.
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Post by mrgumby OT21 on Oct 29, 2010 19:47:39 GMT -5
these pics are way to big ..can someone resize them??
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Post by midnight on Oct 31, 2010 12:04:58 GMT -5
Tombstone, next time I get out to Radio Shack, I will pick up that resistor and give it a try. I admit that the adjustment is pretty critical right now. Compared to my Cobra 142, the Navaho pro sounds about the same in a 10-mile radius or so, but when I get about 30 miles out to one of our friends with 4-element beams, he can't pull me out as well on the Realistic; it's the difference between hearing me and not hearing me, so he prefers the Cobra.
On the +2 topic: I wired in the element from the Turner 254 and tried it; watching the mod meter on the Cobra, I see that it has improved but is still inadequate for speech. Whistling will take it to 100 percent but I haven't perfected communicating in that language yet. This mic has the board wired to the back of the element. Anyone know how to check out the board? No oscilloscope here just yet. Nothing looks roached on that board, just looks old. I noticed that CBrown's +2 push bar also lists to the right, same as mine. Must be from a buncha right-handers keying it? I'm a lefty, so if I get it working, I imagine it will level over time.
Again, thanks for all of the interest and help you guys have shown. And CBrown, I really like that 2995 you have there. I looked at it more than the mic. <G>
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Post by cbrown on Nov 1, 2010 8:39:36 GMT -5
these pics are way to big ..can someone resize them?? Sorry about that, it's fixed!
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Post by cbrown on Nov 1, 2010 8:51:40 GMT -5
On the +2 topic: I wired in the element from the Turner 254 and tried it; watching the mod meter on the Cobra, I see that it has improved but is still inadequate for speech. Whistling will take it to 100 percent but I haven't perfected communicating in that language yet. This mic has the board wired to the back of the element. Anyone know how to check out the board? No oscilloscope here just yet. Nothing looks roached on that board, just looks old. I noticed that CBrown's +2 push bar also lists to the right, same as mine. Must be from a buncha right-handers keying it? I'm a lefty, so if I get it working, I imagine it will level over time. Even my new in box +2's keybars kind of list to the right, so to speak. Must have been the design at the time. As for the element, are you getting any reports on how the element (audio out) sounds? Never mind hitting 100% modulation right now, just see if the microphone sounds good on the air. If it still sounds bad, you could have a fried preamp, although there also is a good chance the element in the 254 is bad too. And CBrown, I really like that 2995 you have there. I looked at it more than the mic. <G> I use the 2995 for my 10M comms. One of my favorite bands, ever since I was a kid. Except for having to install a CTCSS board, I like using the 2995. The +2 rocks on FM.
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Post by midnight on Nov 1, 2010 11:15:05 GMT -5
One thing I forgot about when I first tried out the new element is to turn up the Dynamike on the Cobra.
With the +2 gain and the mic gain on the radio now wide open, I got OK reports with it on AM last night but the other op was really closeby, about four miles away maximum. He said it was crystal clear but didn't really make mention of great audio.
I just wonder why it has to be so wide open to just barely be acceptable (not overmod). Wondering if there's a resistor value on the board in the mic that could be reduced a bit somewhere. Haven't tried it on SSB yet.
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Post by cbrown on Nov 2, 2010 8:40:04 GMT -5
The Turner +2 might use a two stage amplifier. Let me pull mine apart and see what the actual board is.
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Nov 2, 2010 18:55:02 GMT -5
The Turner +2 might use a two stage amplifier. Let me pull mine apart and see what the actual board is. That depends on which vintage it is. The older version with the amp shoved up in the neck is a 2 transistor amp. The newer vintage with the board mounted to the back of the element might only be a single transistor, if memory serves.
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Post by midnight on Nov 2, 2010 21:01:17 GMT -5
Mine is the one with the board soldered to the back of the element. This mic has pulled down two 9V batteries, brand new, to around 5 V output, so something seems to be sucking them down. I thought I had just mixed the first one up with a dead one on the bench, so that's why the second one went in without question.
Would there be a short to ground that still permits the mic to talk without squealing or keying on its own etc.? Both of those batteries are drugstore house brand but they are not cheapo and I have used them for up to a year in my D-104s without incident. Wondering if they were bad out of the package (twin pack) or if they got sucked dry by the mic. I have one more of the same kind, also new, that's doing 9.7V on the meter and wonder if it's worth wasting another $5 to "make sure" or if there's something else I can check first.
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Nov 2, 2010 21:31:30 GMT -5
Mine is the one with the board soldered to the back of the element. This mic has pulled down two 9V batteries, brand new, to around 5 V output, so something seems to be sucking them down. I thought I had just mixed the first one up with a dead one on the bench, so that's why the second one went in without question. Would there be a short to ground that still permits the mic to talk without squealing or keying on its own etc.? Both of those batteries are drugstore house brand but they are not cheapo and I have used them for up to a year in my D-104s without incident. Wondering if they were bad out of the package (twin pack) or if they got sucked dry by the mic. I have one more of the same kind, also new, that's doing 9.7V on the meter and wonder if it's worth wasting another $5 to "make sure" or if there's something else I can check first. Well, the battery should only be connected when the PTT switch is pressed. If it's drawing current all the time, the PTT switch contacts may be misaligned, or there's a wiring issue. If the pre-amp is drawing excessive current, there may be a leaky cap or a shorted transistor. But in that case, I would think there would be no output at all.
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Post by cbrown on Nov 3, 2010 8:37:21 GMT -5
Without seeing it myself, I agree with Sandbagger. I think your battery contact is probably not disconnecting.
I didn't get a change last night to pull the mic apart. I'll try and get to it tonight. I'll see if I can take a look and see if I can figure out the battery drain also.
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Post by cbrown on Nov 3, 2010 9:03:17 GMT -5
Let's see if this comes out: In the drawing you can see that the battery should only be connected when the microphone is keyed. When you key the microphone you remove the white wire (audio) from ground and connect the negative side of the battery to ground.
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Post by midnight on Nov 3, 2010 21:23:05 GMT -5
OK, here's what I think is happening, CBrown, based on your drawings. When I plugged the mic into the radio and tested it, I had the battery OUT of its little holder/cavity in the base of the mic, and when I took the mic out of line and left it on the bench, I tucked the battery into its holder and clipped it in, which pressed on the bottom contacts of the key and maybe shorted the batt to ground overnight. The mic works fine when the batt is out of its holder but I tucked it in tonight and keyed it on the radio, it makes a hellacious squeal/chirp as the relay kicks in and then stops. I tried flipping it over and rotating it end to end but the result is the same. Because this mic has been *much* loved by someone else, I am not sure how the batt is supposed to be insulated from those contacts and how it's supposed to not press on them with the spring bar retainer in place (there's some black plastic riveted in on either side of the cavity but it appears to have broken off and gone missing along the way somewhere (was it an insulating plastic box?). Someone replaced the batt contact clip along the way and it's kind of thick, making for a squeeze-fit lengthwise into the cavity.
BTW I got some glowing audio reports from a friend six miles out saying that it was beautifully smooth broadcast-type sound but just a tad low on the mod and dropping off quickly if I backed away from the element even just a little (I'm really close-talking it but not shouting now). I think I'm making progress with everyone's help and thinking I really may have a nice station combo if I can get over these last two hurdles (battery and increase the audio gain to acceptable levels). Again, many thanks for every step in this thread. I now have two mics that are successfully wired to their respective radios, with one talking wall to wall and the other one closing in fast on something special.
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Post by midnight on Nov 10, 2010 22:36:15 GMT -5
Can anyone with a one-transistor Turner +2 mic tell me how the out-of-the-box battery cavity is configured or post a photo of the bottom of the mic? Is there an insulating box between the battery and the PTT contact leafs?
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Nov 11, 2010 7:13:06 GMT -5
Can anyone with a one-transistor Turner +2 mic tell me how the out-of-the-box battery cavity is configured or post a photo of the bottom of the mic? Is there an insulating box between the battery and the PTT contact leafs? There is a grey fishpaper box that insulates the battery from the mic internals.
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Post by cbrown on Nov 11, 2010 10:06:11 GMT -5
It looks like this: On the later models they used a plastic version.
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Post by midnight on Nov 12, 2010 21:52:34 GMT -5
Great photo and thanks for the response y'all. I had never heard of fishpaper before; maybe I can get something rigged up that looks halfway decent.
Again, many thanks for all of the help provided in this thread. My station is miles ahead for it.
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