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Post by homerbb on Feb 9, 2013 10:58:49 GMT -5
Night Ranger, I may have missed them, but what are the dimensions for this 11 meter version of the Curtain Array? Also, what height were you able to suspend it?
I doubt I have room, but would like to see what is needed for such an antenna.
Thanks
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Post by Marc on Feb 15, 2013 12:01:34 GMT -5
Have you thought of some kind of reflector for this?
Marc
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Post by Night Ranger on Feb 15, 2013 12:37:47 GMT -5
Have you thought of some kind of reflector for this? Marc I've thought about that alot. Mostly I have been considering how I am going to physically support something that big. Using a tuned reflector will reduce the size, but lose the multi-band gain of a full sized screen reflector. I have been watching Craig's List for cheap sections of used ROHN tower. The idea is to put them together and make two 90 to 100 foot towers. I'd also like to go to an eight element curtain array for pointing out west. Basically it would be one row higher than my current six element array. I'll be on the air this Saturday on channel 28 AM beaming west as long as the weather and skip conditions permit. Night Ranger/ South Carolina 116
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Post by Marc on Feb 15, 2013 15:24:35 GMT -5
How far across would 2 colum\ns of 6 elements be??
Happens to me also LOL
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Post by Marc on Feb 15, 2013 15:59:52 GMT -5
This is what I was thinking. Attachments:
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Post by Night Ranger on Feb 15, 2013 16:21:26 GMT -5
How far across would 2 colum\ns of 6 elements be?? Happens to me also LOL I plotted it out at home. I'll post the EZNEC graph plots after I get home from work. The problem I am seeing with two phased six elements is the beamwidth of the antenna narrows from 36 degrees to about 16 degrees. At that narrow a beamwidth I would probably only cover about half of the mid west and pacific west states from my location in South Carolina. It is possible to electronically aim the antenna + or - 30 degrees to either side by changing the phasing between three colum\ns, but that adds significant complexity to the feeding of the antenna array. See "HRS" antenna; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HRS_antennaNight Ranger
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Post by Marc on Feb 15, 2013 18:04:34 GMT -5
What would happen if you slanted the outer ends back a little ? Like a reverse corner reflector. And I do mean just a little about 3 degree's
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Post by Night Ranger on Feb 15, 2013 18:56:55 GMT -5
What would happen if you slanted the outer ends back a little ? Like a reverse corner reflector. And I do mean just a little about 3 degree's I have no idea. Night Ranger
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Post by Marc on Feb 15, 2013 19:12:15 GMT -5
Might spread the pattern out a little.(usind two 6s side by side) I will be on 28 around 8:00 am PST listening for you have a good night!!
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Post by BBB on Feb 16, 2013 10:49:20 GMT -5
Can you snap a picture of what this set up looks like up in the air? Love to see it so I can copy it, I mean look at the materials used ;D
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Post by Night Ranger on Feb 16, 2013 13:18:47 GMT -5
Can you snap a picture of what this set up looks like up in the air? Love to see it so I can copy it, I mean look at the materials used ;D There is an HD video of the six element curtain array on YouTube at; www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQQt9E2EiX8The antenna is made of 14 gauge stranded and insulated copper wire, 450 ladder line, nine homemade PVC insulators, nylon rope, a Hy-Power 4:1 5 KW balun, and a three foot jumper from the 4:1 balun back to the antenna tuner. Night Ranger / South Carolina 116 on sideband
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Post by Night Ranger on Feb 16, 2013 16:03:13 GMT -5
Inside view of the 4:1 five KW Hy-Power baluns, antenna tuner, and ladder line that connect to the two Lazy H antennas and the six element curtain array. www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP-5aTVmZFANight Ranger
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Post by BBB on Feb 16, 2013 17:31:31 GMT -5
Thank you. Very informative. Since I live in the woods, it's totally do-able here. My wife will love Ladder Line. I'll have to expose her to it in small pieces at first. It's been about 6 months since she stopped complaining about the LMR400 jetting out of the dog flap
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Post by Night Ranger on Feb 17, 2013 5:37:21 GMT -5
Thank you. Very informative. Since I live in the woods, it's totally do-able here. My wife will love Ladder Line. I'll have to expose her to it in small pieces at first. It's been about 6 months since she stopped complaining about the LMR400 jetting out of the dog flap You'll like the antenna. It is also a multi-band antenna, so if you have your ham license you can use it from 10 MHz to 29 MHz. At 10 MHz it is the same as a dipole gain wise. As you go up in frequency the gain increases and the lobes narrow until you hit about 29 MHz. After that the gain drops off and the pattern splits in to a clover leaf pattern. Night Ranger
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Post by Night Ranger on Sept 22, 2013 14:16:53 GMT -5
Thanks to Sandbagger and Spitfire I have been able to get video gates of my Lazy H antenna coming in skip up the east coast of the U.S. Thanks to WI989 in Wisconsin I was able to listen in to a video gate of my Lazy H facing the Great Lake States. Well on Saturday I finally got to hear and see my homemade six element curtain array coming in via skip to California thanks to Mustang 131's "High Desert Radio" video gate streaming off of UStream.tv. Can you see me grinning? Radio: Realistic TRC-422a Microphone: Astatic D-104 Output: 425 watt dead key out of a ten tube D&A Phantom Antenna: Homemade six element curtain array. Transmitter Location: South Carolina, U.S.A near Charleston Receiver Location: Southern California CB Channel: 28 Night Ranger in South Carolina makes the video gate in California. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBV8_DmgF-INight Ranger ;D
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Post by cbrown on Sept 23, 2013 8:30:11 GMT -5
Very nicely done!
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Post by Night Ranger on Sept 23, 2013 8:49:36 GMT -5
I modeled and plotted out an eight element curtain array that is two elements wide and four elements high, but it turns out I can get almost as much gain and the same lower take off angle if I just raise the antenna 1/2 wave length higher in the air. That is alot easier to pull off. Night Ranger
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Post by cbrown on Sept 24, 2013 8:53:59 GMT -5
I really like the curtain array antennas. I just wish I had the real estate to pull it off.
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Post by Night Ranger on Apr 23, 2014 7:50:11 GMT -5
Yesterday I carried on a five minute conversation with Motor Mouth Maul using the six element curtain array and 500 watts carrier........on the super bowl. When I told him what I was using he started contemplating building one himself.
: )
Night Ranger
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,250
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Post by Sandbagger on Apr 23, 2014 10:38:27 GMT -5
Yesterday I carried on a five minute conversation with Motor Mouth Maul using the six element curtain array and 500 watts carrier........on the super bowl. When I told him what I was using he started contemplating building one himself. : ) Night Ranger You need to build one and aim it up our way, and see if it works better than the lazy-H. Of course, until the Sporadic-E starts working your way, we'll never know either way.......
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Post by Night Ranger on Apr 23, 2014 23:05:26 GMT -5
Yesterday I carried on a five minute conversation with Motor Mouth Maul using the six element curtain array and 500 watts carrier........on the super bowl. When I told him what I was using he started contemplating building one himself. : ) Night Ranger You need to build one and aim it up our way, and see if it works better than the lazy-H. Of course, until the Sporadic-E starts working your way, we'll never know either way....... So far I have only heard Sporadic E skip to the south and to the west. The atmosphere must not be hot enough up north yet. I listened for any hint of PA skip during the CRR tonight, but there was nothing from up north. Night Ranger
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,250
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Post by Sandbagger on Apr 24, 2014 8:01:58 GMT -5
You need to build one and aim it up our way, and see if it works better than the lazy-H. Of course, until the Sporadic-E starts working your way, we'll never know either way....... So far I have only heard Sporadic E skip to the south and to the west. The atmosphere must not be hot enough up north yet. I listened for any hint of PA skip during the CRR tonight, but there was nothing from up north. Night Ranger We had plenty of skip, but it didn't open up until after 9:00, and then it was to Spokane Washington. The rest of the night it was just a constant whine of noise.
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roadrunner
Mudduck
Just got here today. Looking forward to talking to anyone about RF radios and antennas.
Posts: 37
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Post by roadrunner on Jun 25, 2015 8:20:06 GMT -5
Night Ranger, I found your post and read it with alot of interest. Very nice beam! I have just built a four element vertical beam for 11 meters and thought you might like my new web site on this home made beam. If so just type in Isolated 4 element beam project and you can see everything i did. Loved your post and have fun with your home built antenna. Roadrunner
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Post by cbrown on Jun 25, 2015 8:36:32 GMT -5
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Post by Night Ranger on Jun 25, 2015 14:19:08 GMT -5
Night Ranger, I found your post and read it with alot of interest. Very nice beam! I have just built a four element vertical beam for 11 meters and thought you might like my new web site on this home made beam. If so just type in Isolated 4 element beam project and you can see everything i did. Loved your post and have fun with your home built antenna. Roadrunner Hi Roadrunner, I have been really happy with both my six element curtain array and my two Lazy H antennas. You can listen in to the receive on my end for both antenna types at the video below. I start on one Lazy H aimed toward Pennsylvania from South Carolina and end with a contact out west on the six element curtain array. The Kraco radio is a just for fun project. Basically I picked the smallest bottom of the line CB out of my junk box, and I am seeing how far I can push it. Output power is 200 watts carrier from a D&A Maverick. The distance between Pennsylvania and my location in South Carolina is between 600 and 700 miles. The frequency was CB channel 13 - 27.115 MHz. The propagation mode was sporadic E skip. Skeeter, No Streak and Murphy videogate - 6/22/2016 www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vwZF7SsvP0Both the Lazy H and the six element curtain array work great, but the six element array is the mac daddy for talking to skip station more than 2000 miles away. I have received 20 over s9 reports out of Hawaii on several occasions. Doing A/B comparisons the Lazy H beats a dipole by 2 S units, but the six element array beats the dipole by 4 s units at 2000 miles out. I suspect the difference is even greater when talking 3000 miles out due to the much lower angle of radiation offered by the six element array. There have been many times when signals in Hawaii I could not hear on the dipole jumped to S9 on the six element curtain array. Night Ranger
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roadrunner
Mudduck
Just got here today. Looking forward to talking to anyone about RF radios and antennas.
Posts: 37
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Post by roadrunner on Jun 25, 2015 23:38:02 GMT -5
Night Ranger, Wow that was a great video. Thank you and yes that skip can be very unpredictable at times. I think when most people talk about beams and how much gain they make, you don't hear very much about how well they receive especially that monster you have. Well anyways thank you for letting all of us see your beam pictures and the video. Very good work night Ranger what's next? Roadrunner
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Post by Night Ranger on Jun 26, 2015 6:38:49 GMT -5
Night Ranger, Wow that was a great video. Thank you and yes that skip can be very unpredictable at times. I think when most people talk about beams and how much gain they make, you don't hear very much about how well they receive especially that monster you have. Well anyways thank you for letting all of us see your beam pictures and the video. Very good work night Ranger what's next? Roadrunner I've thought about co-phasing two Lazy H antennas. The first way would be side by side as expected. The second way would be to combine the Lazy H with the W8JK array. Basically one Lazy H would be behind the other and the phasing would be reversed. I have also considered another six element array for talking to Pennsylvania except this time use 1/2 wave elements with 1/2 wave spacing. I use the Lazy H facing PA to talk to western Europe as well, so using .6 wave elements would probably narrow the beam to the point of losing Europe. Night Ranger
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roadrunner
Mudduck
Just got here today. Looking forward to talking to anyone about RF radios and antennas.
Posts: 37
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Post by roadrunner on Jun 26, 2015 9:03:58 GMT -5
Night Ranger, I did some reading on your H beam antenna because i really don't know very much about wire antennas. Is your lazy H antenna wire or elements? According to what i read this antenna can really pack a punch. I looked at the gain numbers and Horizontal-Vertical antenna patterns. The figure eight side lobes are very interesting. Is your lazy H antenna in the dipole family? In your last post you said that you might co-phase two Lazy H antennas at a 1/2'' wave length. I have done some work on 1/2 wave antennas my self and was very happy on how well they performed on those skip days. With a 8.500 foot 1/4 wave aluminum tube and a small amount power I (Had very good results). I have never co-phase any 11 meter antenna before but i am sure that my time is coming, but for right now i am so involved in another project that takes up alot of my time. Roadrunner
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Post by Night Ranger on Jun 26, 2015 10:42:09 GMT -5
Night Ranger, I did some reading on your H beam antenna because i really don't know very much about wire antennas. Is your lazy H antenna wire or elements? According to what i read this antenna can really pack a punch. I looked at the gain numbers and Horizontal-Vertical antenna patterns. The figure eight side lobes are very interesting. Is your lazy H antenna in the dipole family? In your last post you said that you might co-phase two Lazy H antennas at a 1/2'' wave length. I have done some work on 1/2 wave antennas my self and was very happy on how well they performed on those skip days. With a 8.500 foot 1/4 wave aluminum tube and a small amount power I (Had very good results). I have never co-phase any 11 meter antenna before but i am sure that my time is coming, but for right now i am so involved in another project that takes up alot of my time. Roadrunner This video shows one of my Lazy H antennas. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WSmuDFWJckI used the center fed "Good Feed System Lazy-H" design as described on the web page listed below and in the ARRL Antenna handbook. There are four 1/2 wave elements. Two on top and two on the bottom. www.w8ji.com/curtain%20sterba%20USIA%20array.htm#Lazy_H_AntennaThere are a few things I learned while making the Lazy H antennas that are not in the books. 1) Make sure the ladder line coming away from the antenna is perpendicular to the plane of the antenna for at least a wavelength. Initially I had the ladder line coming away from the antenna at a 45 degree angle, and it skewed the radiation pattern of the antenna in the direction of the ladder line. 2) Adjust the length of the ladder line from the antenna to the balun at the tuner so that a minimum amount of inductance is required to tune the antenna tuner. If the length requires a large amount of inductance at the tuner the balun will get much hotter even at power levels way below the balun's specified rating. 3) Ladder line is affected by water, so expect the SWR to change sharply when the ladder line is wet. 4) The vertical ropes used to set the spacing between the top and bottom elements will stretch over time and change the top to bottom element spacing. Take the antenna down after a few months and remeasure the length of the vertical ropes. I have seen the length increase by as much as a foot and a half over the first year. 5) Make sure the balun you are using is good. The built in balun on my Dentron MT-3000 tuner was crap and prevented the antenna from working correctly on the first few tries. I replaced it with an external 4:1 balun and a short jumper. The Lazy H lit up and performed as expected once the bad built in balun was out of the picture. Night Ranger
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roadrunner
Mudduck
Just got here today. Looking forward to talking to anyone about RF radios and antennas.
Posts: 37
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Post by roadrunner on Jun 26, 2015 20:48:18 GMT -5
Boy, that web site you gave me is great. i need some time to digest all that information on this antenna. I have never used ladder line to feed a antenna but i have never designed or built a wire antenna. Give me some time to study all the information on this and i will get back with you. I read your post with great interest. Roadrunner
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