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Post by cbrown on Aug 19, 2016 13:50:33 GMT -5
Thanks! I'll pass this along too. You guys are the best!
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Post by MonkeyMan on Aug 22, 2016 12:10:00 GMT -5
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Post by MonkeyMan on Sept 28, 2016 12:46:42 GMT -5
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Sandbagger
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Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Sept 29, 2016 7:38:38 GMT -5
My mother was deathly afraid of lightning strikes, so we never had an outdoor TV antenna when I was a kid. We spent far more interesting time bending the rabbit ears in different directions depending on which channel we were watching (and they all were different). It was rare that there wasn't either snow or ghosting on any of the shows I watched.
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Post by MonkeyMan on Sept 29, 2016 10:33:44 GMT -5
My mother was deathly afraid of lightning strikes, so we never had an outdoor TV antenna when I was a kid. We spent far more interesting time bending the rabbit ears in different directions depending on which channel we were watching (and they all were different). It was rare that there wasn't either snow or ghosting on any of the shows I watched. We had an outdoor antenna but weren't in a great spot, so we too watched many a snowy/ghosted program. The 12" black and white set I had in my bedroom required several different antenna "settings" depending on which channel I wanted to watch so I extended the twin-lead to the rabbit ears to allow for "maximum receive potential". One channel required the rabbit ears to be balanced flat off the top of the closet door, while another called for them to be laid down flat, hanging out the window. Interesting lightning footnote. My father has one of those big, wooden console/furniture type stereos from the 1960's. One night during an electrical storm we awoke to that thing playing at full volume, and it is LOUD. Dad still remembers waking up thinking that someone had broken in and was throwing a dance party in the living room. He ran out and tried pushing down on the volume knob to turn it off, but it was already down. It had been struck by lightning and went full throttle so he had to pull the plug. I can vaguely remember the repairman coming out to fix it, and it still works to this day.
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Sept 29, 2016 11:38:49 GMT -5
My mother was deathly afraid of lightning strikes, so we never had an outdoor TV antenna when I was a kid. We spent far more interesting time bending the rabbit ears in different directions depending on which channel we were watching (and they all were different). It was rare that there wasn't either snow or ghosting on any of the shows I watched. We had an outdoor antenna but weren't in a great spot, so we too watched many a snowy/ghosted program. The 12" black and white set I had in my bedroom required several different antenna "settings" depending on which channel I wanted to watch so I extended the twin-lead to the rabbit ears to allow for "maximum receive potential". One channel required the rabbit ears to be balanced flat off the top of the closet door, while another called for them to be laid down flat, hanging out the window. Interesting lightning footnote. My father has one of those big, wooden console/furniture type stereos from the 1960's. One night during an electrical storm we awoke to that thing playing at full volume, and it is LOUD. Dad still remembers waking up thinking that someone had broken in and was throwing a dance party in the living room. He ran out and tried pushing down on the volume knob to turn it off, but it was already down. It had been struck by lightning and went full throttle so he had to pull the plug. I can vaguely remember the repairman coming out to fix it, and it still works to this day. A CB friend of mine from the 70's had a TV that was hit by lightning (most likely a spike through the AC line), that welded the on/off switch in the "on" position and he had to unplug it to turn it off. Otherwise, it worked fine and he never had it fixed. He just unplugged it. My mother's paranoia with respect to lightning strikes had to do with a near miss that scared the heck out of her. My father evidently did have an outside antenna for a brief period of time (I found a feedline standoff left over from it). One night during a storm, a lightning strike came really close and she felt that the antenna had "attracted" the lightning, and made dad take it down. This fear almost prevented me from putting up a full sized CB antenna when I was evolving from walkie-talkies to "real" radios. Thankfully another adult radio friend managed to somehow talk her into it. But she always got nervous when lightning was around. Yea, trying to watch TV with an indoor antenna was a challenge. We had one of those "fancy" rabbit ears with the phasing control on the front. But you still had to monkey (no pun intended) with the position, length, and placement of the antenna to get the best picture. And for UHF, you had to mangle the loop antenna that flopped around on the back of the set. And just when you thought you had the picture down, someone would walk across the room and make the picture jump and roll, which would start the tuning process all over again......
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Post by MonkeyMan on Oct 14, 2016 13:21:04 GMT -5
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Oct 14, 2016 17:37:35 GMT -5
An interesting article, but there were some "misinformation" stated. While digital is a much different transmission method than analog, it is still transmitted by RF, and it is still subject to environmental conditions, such as multipath. The thing with digital is that you aren't aware of those issues. With digital, you get a clean perfect picture, until the bit error rate exceeds a programmed value and it simply mutes. Right before that, you will see tiling or "macro blocking". If Rabbit ears worked ok for analog signals, they will still work fine for digital ones. RF is RF. I'll have to do a little research into these "fractal" antennas. My first impression is that of snake oil, but there may be something to it.
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Post by MonkeyMan on Feb 7, 2017 17:35:49 GMT -5
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Post by MonkeyMan on May 8, 2017 12:36:37 GMT -5
So, I've been enjoying free hi-def TV for a little over two years now and loving it. With my current set-up I'm receiving just about everything I could hope for, with the exception of PBS 12. All indications show that I should receive it, but no dice. Signal strength for channel 12 is typically low, in the 30-40 range, but signal quality is always a big 0. I receive other stations with similar signal strength, but with much higher quality numbers. Low quality numbers generally indicate interference. So today I was reading about interference in the hi VHF band and came across a few mentions of 2nd harmonic interference from nearby FM stations. www.tvtechnology.com/expertise/0003/dtv-interference-on-vhf-channels-413/203642Channel 12 spreads between 204 and 210 mhz, and I just happen to have two stations that could be potential trouble makers. 101.7 running 15 watts, .63 miles to the West and 103.5 running 200 watts, 1.66 miles to the Northeast. Both these stations peg the signal meter of all my FM tuners, so the potential is there. I'm going to try a filter as suggested and see if that helps. We shall see...
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on May 8, 2017 18:57:56 GMT -5
So, I've been enjoying free hi-def TV for a little over two years now and loving it. With my current set-up I'm receiving just about everything I could hope for, with the exception of PBS 12. All indications show that I should receive it, but no dice. Signal strength for channel 12 is typically low, in the 30-40 range, but signal quality is always a big 0. I receive other stations with similar signal strength, but with much higher quality numbers. Low quality numbers generally indicate interference. So today I was reading about interference in the hi VHF band and came across a few mentions of 2nd harmonic interference from nearby FM stations. www.tvtechnology.com/expertise/0003/dtv-interference-on-vhf-channels-413/203642Channel 12 spreads between 204 and 210 mhz, and I just happen to have two stations that could be potential trouble makers. 101.7 running 15 watts, .63 miles to the West and 103.5 running 200 watts, 1.66 miles to the Northeast. Both these stations peg the signal meter of all my FM tuners, so the potential is there. I'm going to try a filter as suggested and see if that helps. We shall see... Are those LPFM stations? are they any good in their program format? Back to your issue, I'm not sure if a filter will help you. If it is truly a 2nd harmonic of one of those stations, then that harmonic is on-channel for your channel 12 signal and can't be filtered out without filtering out the desired signal. Harmonic suppression would need to happen in the transmitter. Now if you are suffering from some sort of intermodulation products as a result of two strong signals combining and producing interference as a result of either sum or difference mix products, then a filter may help that. Also if the source of your interference is in a different direction from the desired signal, a tighter, higher gain antenna might help. You would have to put a spectrum analyzer on your antenna lead to see if there are interfering signals present, to know exactly what you are dealing with.
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Post by MonkeyMan on May 8, 2017 19:39:56 GMT -5
So, I've been enjoying free hi-def TV for a little over two years now and loving it. With my current set-up I'm receiving just about everything I could hope for, with the exception of PBS 12. All indications show that I should receive it, but no dice. Signal strength for channel 12 is typically low, in the 30-40 range, but signal quality is always a big 0. I receive other stations with similar signal strength, but with much higher quality numbers. Low quality numbers generally indicate interference. So today I was reading about interference in the hi VHF band and came across a few mentions of 2nd harmonic interference from nearby FM stations. www.tvtechnology.com/expertise/0003/dtv-interference-on-vhf-channels-413/203642Channel 12 spreads between 204 and 210 mhz, and I just happen to have two stations that could be potential trouble makers. 101.7 running 15 watts, .63 miles to the West and 103.5 running 200 watts, 1.66 miles to the Northeast. Both these stations peg the signal meter of all my FM tuners, so the potential is there. I'm going to try a filter as suggested and see if that helps. We shall see... Are those LPFM stations? are they any good in their program format? Back to your issue, I'm not sure if a filter will help you. If it is truly a 2nd harmonic of one of those stations, then that harmonic is on-channel for your channel 12 signal and can't be filtered out without filtering out the desired signal. Harmonic suppression would need to happen in the transmitter. Now if you are suffering from some sort of intermodulation products as a result of two strong signals combining and producing interference as a result of either sum or difference mix products, then a filter may help that. Also if the source of your interference is in a different direction from the desired signal, a tighter, higher gain antenna might help. You would have to put a spectrum analyzer on your antenna lead to see if there are interfering signals present, to know exactly what you are dealing with. I was just thinking about this and you read my mind, a 88-108 MHz filter isn't going to do a damn thing if the interference is from the 2nd harmonic(s). I also recalled that my antenna amp has an FM trap built in, so I crawled out to see if it was on, and it was. I switched it off and no difference, as I suspected. The 15 watt station is directly to the West, which is right into the back of the TV antenna. The other is mostly North, but a bit East as well, so that's coming into the side of the antenna. A higher gain antenna has been in the back of my mind, but do I want to drop another $100+ for PBS when I can get it on the Roku? Maybe if I could pick one up used or at a deep discount, but otherwise I think I'm going to leave this alone. Both stations carry religious programing. Maybe they're trying to tell me something?
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Post by MonkeyMan on May 9, 2017 8:21:21 GMT -5
The 15 watt station is directly to the West, which is right into the back of the TV antenna... I think this station is the offender. Early on in my experiments I had the small RCA antenna hanging out the rear window of the house and I was receiving channel 12. I assume the house was blocking the FM signal (to some degree) coming from the West.
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Post by MonkeyMan on May 9, 2017 8:57:25 GMT -5
You would have to put a spectrum analyzer on your antenna lead to see if there are interfering signals present, to know exactly what you are dealing with. I'm going to start "cheap & dirty". My dad has (had?) a portable radio that receives the TV bands, maybe that could shed some light. Ooo! I have a Sony Watchman laying around somewhere...
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Post by MonkeyMan on Jul 20, 2017 20:24:00 GMT -5
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
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Post by Sandbagger on Jul 21, 2017 7:57:54 GMT -5
Stuffy old fart comment: "So I'm going to have to invest in a new TV so they can push their content to smart phones?" Meh!
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Post by bluemax on Jul 23, 2017 18:26:38 GMT -5
You guys have heard me going on and on about interference. I actually had a discussion with a tech rep from WPVI, 6ABC, around the time of the switch to digital. I am on the very far fringe of Channel 6, which is the station of choice most often. The funny thing is that 6 and 3 are broadcast from the EXACT SAME antenna at the Roxborough farm...but VERY different frequencies and hence different power allotments. But the pixelating and freezing is much worse today than at that time. Just like in the analog days, the higher frequency gets out here better, so I can tell which stations are higher or lower transmit frequency by my reception...or lack of it.
I wanted to put in a dish ( the 4 foot variety then ) when we moved in here, as there is no cable service. But I have mountains on three sides and evergreens in the direction necessary at that time, so I had the man put up a VERY good UHF/VHF antenna. For what it is, it works pretty well. My signal strength on the weakest stations isn't bad, but the interference is often overpowering the signal strength. No word yet from Met Ed...need to bug them again.
But I have noticed something worth mentioning...I'm using radio more and TV less. I have tons of old VCR's that I can still watch, DVD's in my library, and my son gets NETFLIX rentals regularly, so I'm not missing the crappy broadcast offerings anyway. When I do watch something it's PBS or an "Oldies" show. Gee, that's the way it was for me in the 70's, too!!!
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Post by MonkeyMan on Jul 24, 2017 7:51:32 GMT -5
Even with excellent signal strength and quality on channel 6, lately I've been experiencing pixelation from time to time, and I believe it's summer skip. VHF channel 2, MeTV, more often than not has been unwatchable the last month and a half or so. Signal strength remains in the 70's, but signal quality drops into the 20's while it was 60' & 70's prior to the warm weather. This happened last summer, but not as severely. Conditions for TV dxing must be good.
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Post by MonkeyMan on Aug 2, 2017 13:31:19 GMT -5
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Post by MonkeyMan on Nov 16, 2017 16:21:46 GMT -5
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Post by BBB on Nov 22, 2017 10:52:12 GMT -5
"In authorizing next-gen ATSC 3.0 TV, the agency is requiring ATSC 1.0 simulcasts to deliver “substantially similar” programming as the 3.0 channel for five years. However, the vote provides for certain exceptions, such as ads, promos for upcoming programs and programming features that takes advantage of new 3.0 capabilities."
So ATSC 3.0 will eventually become an OTA Pay TV Service. Oh and you'll need a new tuner to receive those signals. Enjoy free OTA TV while you can. Sure does seem to go in cycles doesn't it?
Warning: Profanity laced funny short video about new equipment:
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Post by MonkeyMan on Nov 22, 2017 11:22:33 GMT -5
"In authorizing next-gen ATSC 3.0 TV, the agency is requiring ATSC 1.0 simulcasts to deliver “substantially similar” programming as the 3.0 channel for five years. However, the vote provides for certain exceptions, such as ads, promos for upcoming programs and programming features that takes advantage of new 3.0 capabilities." So ATSC 3.0 will eventually become an OTA Pay TV Service. Oh and you'll need a new tuner to receive those signals. Enjoy free OTA TV while you can. Sure does seem to go in cycles doesn't it? Warning: Profanity laced funny short video about new equipment: Great video! They said these things about the analog to digital transition too. ATSC 3.0 will have the ability to offer pay-per-view, as well as many other features, but the intent is not for it to become a standalone pay TV service. Yes, a new tuner or some converter will be required, but not immediately. A broadcaster is required to simulcast 1.0 for 5 years AFTER beginning 3.0, and that's probably at least a year out, and not all are going to make the investment into 3.0. It shall be interesting, that's for sure.
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Post by MonkeyMan on Jan 12, 2018 14:01:28 GMT -5
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Post by BBB on Jan 14, 2018 16:04:02 GMT -5
"If you decide to opt-in to personalized ads, you will be able to pick what kind of ads you want to see. With these personalized ads, you will be able to click on an action button and get a personalized coupon or other offer when you see something you want.
These coupons right now come as QR codes that you can scan with your phone and download. Other options like text messages and emails are being considered. Again, this is an opt-in type system."
I'd bet good money that by the time this rolls around you will not be able to "opt out" of local targeted adds. Gotta pay for the equipment and content some how. Oh, how they lie.
We lost Verizon fios service due to a downed tree last week. We pulled out the good old rabbit ears again. Used the google chromecast dongles on the TVs and used our cell phones as mobile hot spots. Funny (but not funny) thing is that the wireless 4G hot spot usage was noticeably faster than the fiber fios internet. Goodbye Verizon TV, rented cable boxes and landline. Hello 1GB internet only subscription.
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Post by MonkeyMan on Jan 14, 2018 17:24:58 GMT -5
"If you decide to opt-in to personalized ads, you will be able to pick what kind of ads you want to see. With these personalized ads, you will be able to click on an action button and get a personalized coupon or other offer when you see something you want. These coupons right now come as QR codes that you can scan with your phone and download. Other options like text messages and emails are being considered. Again, this is an opt-in type system." I'd bet good money that by the time this rolls around you will not be able to "opt out" of local targeted adds. Gotta pay for the equipment and content some how. Oh, how they lie. We lost Verizon fios service due to a downed tree last week. We pulled out the good old rabbit ears again. Used the google chromecast dongles on the TVs and used our cell phones as mobile hot spots. Funny (but not funny) thing is that the wireless 4G hot spot usage was noticeably faster than the fiber fios internet. Goodbye Verizon TV, rented cable boxes and landline. Hello 1GB internet only subscription. We're currently on the "starter" tier of Comcast, internet only. Plenty fast and $49/month. I kept my landline with Ooma voip, which now cost me roughly $6.50/month for unlimited nationwide calling and a snazzy online interface. These together compared to the Verizon DSL and local calling is SOOO much better, and a nearly $15/month less than I was paying.
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Post by MonkeyMan on Jan 21, 2018 11:31:22 GMT -5
I'd like to hear from some experts on this. In my quest to pull in channel 12 (207,000 mhz) I purchased a Kitz Technology low noise preamp to replace my RCA unit. I was pleasantly surprised to see the signal level go from approx. 27-30% with the RCA to 88-90% with the Kitz. Problem is that I still have a big ZERO for signal quality, which is stumping me.
I believe the culprit may be WPAZ just a few miles to the North-Northwest broadcasting at 103.500 FM. 103.500 being exactly half of the channel 12 broadcast frequency, could this possibly be interfering?
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Jan 21, 2018 11:47:22 GMT -5
I'd like to hear from some experts on this. In my quest to pull in channel 12 (207,000 mhz) I purchased a Kitz Technology low noise preamp to replace my RCA unit. I was pleasantly surprised to see the signal level go from approx. 27-30% with the RCA to 88-90% with the Kitz. Problem is that I still have a big ZERO for signal quality, which is stumping me. I believe the culprit may be WPAZ just a few miles to the North-Northwest broadcasting at 103.500 FM. 103.500 being exactly half of the channel 12 broadcast frequency, could this possibly be interfering? One of the biggest problems with received signal, especially digital TV, is signal/noise ratio. For digital signals to be properly decoded, you need at least an 11db signal/noise. Adding a preamp in line boosts everything, signal and noise. So while you will see a big boost in signal level, if the S+N/N ratio doesn't improve, your signal quality will not either. You may also be onto something with 2nd harmonic interference from WPAZ. If you have interfering carriers on the same frequency, it will kill the ability of the digital decoder to properly decode. In order to determine if that is the culprit, you will need a spectrum analyzer and a directional antenna to point at WPAZ and see if there is a signal there. The cure will be along similar lines. A high gain very tight directional antenna that you need to carefully point so that you null out WPAZ and at the same time pulling in channel 12. More antenna gain will also improve S+N/N.
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Post by MonkeyMan on Jan 21, 2018 12:34:02 GMT -5
Thanks Bagger. Using my RTL-SDR I can see lots of noise around 205.000 to 210.000. But there are big "spikes" at approx. 206.975, 207.360, 207.740, 208.125, 208.510 and 208.895.
When it was super cold a couple weeks ago I was receiving channel 12 with a signal around 40% and a quality bouncing around 20-30%, but after it warmed up it was gone.
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Post by BBB on Jan 22, 2018 13:16:39 GMT -5
Couple of quick questions...
So when I go to implement mission "Toss The Box" I should be able to use the like new big honking old school Radio Shack VHF/UHF antenna I have? That sucker is like 6' long.
I will also want to get a quality external signal amplifier located at the base of the antenna right?
Will those amplifiers have some sort of 300 ohm combiner in the amp or do I need a 300 ohm-75 ohm adapter out there?
I'm assuming those amps also require low voltage power of some sort? I already have a brand new (RS) Channel Master TV antenna rotator that I snagged from RS when they were selling out, so I'll by pulling some of that control cable to the antenna rotator anyway.
I'm assuming that the high quality 1 Ghz+ 75 ohm coax I have a spool of will be good to feed the antenna from the house. Thanks.
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Jan 22, 2018 14:06:18 GMT -5
Couple of quick questions... So when I go to implement mission "Toss The Box" I should be able to use the like new big honking old school Radio Shack VHF/UHF antenna I have? That sucker is like 6' long. I will also want to get a quality external signal amplifier located at the base of the antenna right? Will those amplifiers have some sort of 300 ohm combiner in the amp or do I need a 300 ohm-75 ohm adapter out there? I'm assuming those amps also require low voltage power of some sort? I already have a brand new (RS) Channel Master TV antenna rotator that I snagged from RS when they were selling out, so I'll by pulling some of that control cable to the antenna rotator anyway. I'm assuming that the high quality 1 Ghz+ 75 ohm coax I have a spool of will be good to feed the antenna from the house. Thanks. Most modern TV antennas should be 75 ohms already. If not, you'll need a 300/75 Ohm Balun. Any "old fashioned" UHF/VHF antenna should work. The notion that you need a "special" antenna for HD digital, is simply snake oil misleading marketing. RF is still RF, whether it's modulated digitally or analog. I always opt for more antenna gain rather than preamping. Like I told Monkey, you need good signal to noise ratios for clean pixel-free digital pictures. Preamps generally amplify the noise along with the signal and can only make slight improvements in signal/noise. A high gain directional antenna will help pull in the distant stations and reject interference. But where you are, you should get great signals from the Philly stations, and probably others. Mast mount preamps are usually powered from the coax, and are 75 ohm. There will be a power inserter that you place into the feedline at the TV, should that be necessary (I'm thinking not).
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