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Post by bluemax on Feb 19, 2024 9:37:06 GMT -5
Picked up what could be a nice addition or a terrible headache. No mic came with the unit. Powers up; seller had no mic to try. He said he connected pins to receive but couldn't transmit. OK, I thought that sounded promising. I've tried so many mic combinations my head spins. And then I thought...I'm getting no audio without a proper mic, but this should be a relay unit. I should still hear audio with no mic. I'm assuming that is correct? I'm trying a handheld D104 and an SSB+2. Should I be starting with an unamplified dynamic mic? I have had trouble with my other Royce not liking power mics. And for all the photos I've seen of this radio, none are with anything other than your basic stock mic. I will say that this is BY FAR the beefiest CB radio I've ever lifted in my life. It's the size of 6 bricks, and I would say the same weight! I'm thinking I should make a trip to R&R. Any suggestions for an attempt first? Just for info, my antenna is back up and doing well.
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Post by bobcat4109 on Feb 20, 2024 17:41:16 GMT -5
I just checked the SAMS... yes the 1-641 is a relay switched radio. When the mic is NOT keyed the relay is not energized. When the relay is relaxed/non-energized receive should be working fine.
Pin1 is mic audio Pin2 is GND Pin3 is 'ground to xmit' Pin4 doesn't matter ... it is unwired in the radio according to the SAMS.
As long as your mic ties the cartridge audio to 1, Ground to 2 and the switch N/O contact to 3 you should at least switch correctly.
Have you plugged a speaker into the PA spkr jack and tried the PA?
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Post by bluemax on Feb 21, 2024 11:48:05 GMT -5
Thanks, bobcat! I have an extension speaker hooked up but I didn't try PA. I will once I get the mic wired to what you show. Then attempt a TX. I did make that hookup assumption after comparing some different webpages...extrapolating between Astatic and Turner hookups. Not easy, but I figured I couldn't burn the radio using printing and paper & pencil! Your explanation of receive confuses me. Why would no mic attached be any different on Rx sound than "relaxed/non energized" connected mic? ....This is typical of the way my mind works. Like someone explaining a computer action. Knowing what to do is great, but knowing why is better. (I think)
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Post by bobcat4109 on Feb 21, 2024 12:53:58 GMT -5
"Why would no mic attached be any different on Rx sound than "relaxed/non energized" connected mic?"
It wouldn't be any different and that is what I was hoping to get across (on THIS radio!)
On a normal electronic switching radio....when you disconnect the mic from the radio... the speaker no longer has a ground so you won't hear receive.When you plug it back in... the RCV pin grounds the speaker.. and the speaker will work (or should work!!!!).
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Feb 21, 2024 19:58:53 GMT -5
Thanks, bobcat! I have an extension speaker hooked up but I didn't try PA. I will once I get the mic wired to what you show. Then attempt a TX. I did make that hookup assumption after comparing some different webpages...extrapolating between Astatic and Turner hookups. Not easy, but I figured I couldn't burn the radio using printing and paper & pencil! Your explanation of receive confuses me. Why would no mic attached be any different on Rx sound than "relaxed/non energized" connected mic? ....This is typical of the way my mind works. Like someone explaining a computer action. Knowing what to do is great, but knowing why is better. (I think) Some basic questions: So you see signals on the S meter? Is the squelch control fully counter clockwise? Yes, the radio is relay switched, which means you don't need a mic to hear stations. If you can see signals on the meter but can't hear them, that likely means that the audio circuit has a fault. This radios still uses discrete audio transistors in the audio final amp, and not a IC. But that doesn't mean that those can't fail just as easily. If you wire the mic by the diagram given and it throws a carrier and no modulation, that would be a clincher that there is a problem in the audio amp. Although you should be able to modulate on SSB since that uses an entirely different path. If no carrier at all (but the relay clicks) and no signals, then I would suspect a PLL issue.
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Post by bluemax on Feb 23, 2024 7:31:15 GMT -5
Thanks, bobcat! I have an extension speaker hooked up but I didn't try PA. I will once I get the mic wired to what you show. Then attempt a TX. I did make that hookup assumption after comparing some different webpages...extrapolating between Astatic and Turner hookups. Not easy, but I figured I couldn't burn the radio using printing and paper & pencil! Your explanation of receive confuses me. Why would no mic attached be any different on Rx sound than "relaxed/non energized" connected mic? ....This is typical of the way my mind works. Like someone explaining a computer action. Knowing what to do is great, but knowing why is better. (I think) Some basic questions: So you see signals on the S meter? Is the squelch control fully counter clockwise? Yes, the radio is relay switched, which means you don't need a mic to hear stations. If you can see signals on the meter but can't hear them, that likely means that the audio circuit has a fault. This radios still uses discrete audio transistors in the audio final amp, and not a IC. But that doesn't mean that those can't fail just as easily. If you wire the mic by the diagram given and it throws a carrier and no modulation, that would be a clincher that there is a problem in the audio amp. Although you should be able to modulate on SSB since that uses an entirely different path. If no carrier at all (but the relay clicks) and no signals, then I would suspect a PLL issue.
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Post by bluemax on Feb 23, 2024 7:37:00 GMT -5
No movement on the meter at all. Squelch on my radios always minimum...full counterclockwise. I have also found a D104 wiring list that call for two wires on one pin for this radio. Which begs another Q (aren't you happy?) Are the new handheld D104's wires the same color and function as the desk model? I have a handheld and some of the info I see is obviously from times when they didn't exist.
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Post by bobcat4109 on Feb 23, 2024 17:47:12 GMT -5
"No movement on the meter at all. Squelch on my radios always minimum...full counterclockwise."
When you were doing this did you have an RF generator to feed in? or Did you have another radio you could key up so that this radio had some kind of signal coming in?
I too think that, if RF is coming in then you should have needle deflection on the meter, no matter what the squelch setting is. The RF is going to come in the RF amp and through the IF strip no matter what and that takes it right to the meter drive sensing circuitry. If you are not getting some "deflection" with signal coming in... there is more than JUST a mic wiring problem at play here.
Add to that.... no audio coming out.... COULD be in the audio section... or possibly mic wiring....but I'm back to that needle on the meter.... If there isn't at LEAST a tiny bit of bounce you aren't going to have anything for the audio section to amplify.
So there could be more to look into....
Bob
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Feb 24, 2024 20:18:18 GMT -5
No movement on the meter at all. Squelch on my radios always minimum...full counterclockwise. I have also found a D104 wiring list that call for two wires on one pin for this radio. Which begs another Q (aren't you happy?) Are the new handheld D104's wires the same color and function as the desk model? I have a handheld and some of the info I see is obviously from times when they didn't exist. Astatic 6 wire hand mic's should have the same wire colors as the desk mic. Back to the 641 issue...... It could be as simple as a missing 9v supply rail. Curiously, the schematic shows what appears to be 2 internal fuses, on the output of the 9V regulator. One is for strictly transmit functions, the other is for audio and receive functions. If one of these fuses were to open, especially the one powering the receive and audio circuits, you would have no receive and no sound.
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Post by bluemax on Feb 26, 2024 9:25:38 GMT -5
Ahaaaa. You know I was wondering about a power issue, but the schematic that we printed at work wasn't easy for me to follow. I never picked up on fuses. That's something I should be able to check. And the yellow bird seemed to have gotten tired and faded off to sleep. Saturday I warmed it up and everything seemed OK. So I gather maybe a weak tube on the receive circuit or amplifier. But I find myself bumping knobs and not knowing it due to neuropathy in my fingers...although I remember trying the volume with no effect on Wednesday. My two three-knobs are out of commission for this week. Seems like my classics are all falling apart simultaneously. I'll bet it's Covid related. I may have to buy some more just to join the fun. Taking almost a year off with equipment in a semi-controlled environment likely didn't help.
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Post by cbrown on Feb 28, 2024 13:32:33 GMT -5
No movement on the meter at all. Squelch on my radios always minimum...full counterclockwise. I have also found a D104 wiring list that call for two wires on one pin for this radio. Which begs another Q (aren't you happy?) Are the new handheld D104's wires the same color and function as the desk model? I have a handheld and some of the info I see is obviously from times when they didn't exist. The two wires that are attached together on the microphone pin are just two microphone ground paths combined. That is for the 6 wire TUP9/TUG9 base and any 6 wire microphone. Some radios, including some Royce models require you to disconnect the audio lead during receive.
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Post by bluemax on Feb 29, 2024 10:37:25 GMT -5
I think I need to learn how to quote so the right person gets alerted to my response...BUT
Regarding Bobcat, and I'm way beyond my original Q, so IF I had an electronically switched radio, and I didn't have a correctly wired mic to plug in, the audio would likely still not work?
And CBrown, does the PTT switch Connect a circuit for the mic, disconnect a circuit, or both? I'm starting to think maybe two simultaneous functions, hence the 2 grounds...disconnect audio and activate TX?
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Post by bobcat4109 on Feb 29, 2024 13:13:16 GMT -5
"so IF I had an electronically switched radio, and I didn't have a correctly wired mic to plug in, the audio would likely still not work?" True. In most electronic switching schemes that I have seen... the RCV pin in the microphone is connected to a "normally closed" contact on the mic switch and is tied to the ground/shield pin. So when you plug that mic in..... the RCV pin on the radio jack is connected to the circuit ground of the radio. One of the places that receive pin usually goes is to the "ground side" of the speaker. The purpose is to kill the speaker when you "key up". However with the mic unplugged the speaker does not have it's ground connection. Now... in THIS CASE... the needle on the S meter should still wiggle with any incoming RF activity. The mic being unplugged does NOT kill the receiver! Only the speaker. So IF YOU HAVE RF coming in..... and you have the S meter active (like... not switched to SWR which I have done MANY TIMES!!!).... the meter needle should be deflecting... but no sound will come out. This may be more info than you wanted..... I just like giving complete answers!!!!
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Post by bobcat4109 on Feb 29, 2024 13:29:00 GMT -5
And CBrown, does the PTT switch Connect a circuit for the mic, disconnect a circuit, or both? I'm starting to think maybe two simultaneous functions, hence the 2 grounds...disconnect audio and activate TX? CBrown... you can hit me with a stick for grabbing this.... but I was just "on a roll"!!!! Very typical that the RCV pin on the mic grounding... is used to enable the speaker as I mentioned in the other post. So.... UNKEYED... the speaker is connected to ground. KEYED.... the speaker is disconnected from ground... so no sound comes out. Now.... also very typical on the XMT pin........ inside the radio.... there is "diode switching" of different DC voltage supplies so that SOME OF THEM are enabled(powered up) when the mic is UNKEYED and others are disabled (no voltage). Those supplies are tied to various circuit points in the radio.... such that they switch RCV ON and XMT OFF when the mic is UNKEYED... and then ... when you key up.... PARTS of RCV are switched OFF... and XMT is switched ON. It is literally the DC VOLTS on those switched supplies that do the "'switching". Now... THAT is ELECTRONIC switching. In a RELAY switched radio... the only really important switching done by the mic is to GND the XMT pin. What is happening HERE is.... inside the radio... there is a relay. That relay already has a DC voltage supply on one end of the coil. And the coil is just "sitting there waiting" for somebody to key the mic. When they do, that grounds the XMT pin..... which grounds the OTHER SIDE of the relay... which energizes the relay coil and pulls the switch the OTHER WAY. That switch on the relay is wired to switch RCV ON and XMT OFF when the mic is NOT keyed.... and RCV OFF and XMT ON when it IS keyed. In EITHER CASE... many times when you key up to XMT.... they turn the RF AMP on the receive side OFF.... to keep the receiver from seeing the burst of XMT energy that THIS RADIO is generating. It would be "piping it's own XMT RF straight down the IF STRIP" which could hurt some components. One other warning......... In a TUBE radio that is RELAY switched...... watch out sticking your fingers in that microphone socket on the radio!!!!!!! remember I mentioned that the relay coil already has DC voltage on top of the coil??? I have seen that voltage as high as 100 v.... and it will bite you right square on the @$$ if you touch it!!!! Same thing exists on solid state radios... but the voltage is only usually 13.8vdc... and it is not likely to hurt you. But a tube radio can FLAT get your attention!!!!!! Hope this helps..... bob
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Post by bluemax on Feb 29, 2024 14:24:34 GMT -5
Well, I will need to print this for future reference as I know I will forget by the end of this message. But THANK YOU for the explanation(s). Both are informative and plain enough for me to understand. You have also given me some insight into why I see 9 and 13-volt power circuits. I just assumed that these radios were all the same 12/13/14 volts throughout, as supplied. I've noticed some lighter voltage but never traced to see what and where. Switch powering makes all sorts of sense. Again, I appreciate the ability of you and many others to provide me with my never-ending quest for "why". It seems to be as much of a curse as it is a benefit. And good call on the latent voltage. I've been inside a few tube appliances, but I approach them with equal doses of care, inquisitiveness, caution, and respect.
Big Al
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Feb 29, 2024 22:02:17 GMT -5
Well, I will need to print this for future reference as I know I will forget by the end of this message. But THANK YOU for the explanation(s). Both are informative and plain enough for me to understand. You have also given me some insight into why I see 9 and 13-volt power circuits. I just assumed that these radios were all the same 12/13/14 volts throughout, as supplied. I've noticed some lighter voltage but never traced to see what and where. Switch powering makes all sorts of sense. Again, I appreciate the ability of you and many others to provide me with my never-ending quest for "why". It seems to be as much of a curse as it is a benefit. And good call on the latent voltage. I've been inside a few tube appliances, but I approach them with equal doses of care, inquisitiveness, caution, and respect. Big Al Many Royce radios are typical in that the vast majority of the circuits are powered from a 9V regulator. Even the transmit final and driver are fed from the 9V rail, at least in the AM mode. The only circuits that are fed from the 13.8 input voltage are the audio amp, the channel display, the meter lamp, and the relay. There is an internal fuse (allegedly according to the schematic) in the 13.8V line. If it opens, you won't have a channel display readout. There are 2 fuses in the 9V line. One leads to transmit only circuits. If it opens you will not have TX. If you can click the relay and the red TX light doesn't come on, an open fuse may be the cause. The second 9V fuse leads to some common circuits and the receiver circuits. If the green RX lamp does not light in the receive mode, suspect that fuse is open. Of course, if the 9V regulator is bad, neither the TX or RX indicators will light, and of course nothing at all will work, save for the channel display, the relay and the meter light.
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Post by bluemax on Mar 5, 2024 12:43:56 GMT -5
Opened her up the other day after looking at some paperwork. Yes, two fuses with conductors so fine I could not tell the wire from the reflection of the curved glass. Tested with the voltmeter and they're both fine. I want to say that the Rx light is lit with power on...but my photographic memory is apparently not digital, and it's out of film. I'll see if I remember that check-out. I have it unplugged and it's ready to go somewhere... when I decide where that place is.
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Post by cbrown on Mar 6, 2024 13:58:50 GMT -5
And CBrown, does the PTT switch Connect a circuit for the mic, disconnect a circuit, or both? I'm starting to think maybe two simultaneous functions, hence the 2 grounds...disconnect audio and activate TX? There were some radios that required you to open (disconnect) the audio lead during receive, and that usually required another switch be added to the aftermarket microphone you were trying to attach. Most microphone manufactures either sold a switch kit for their mics (I know Turner did) and/or came up with a 6 wire microphone for those 'special' circumstances. I don't think any radio made after 1980 required the 6 wire mics. Johnson was one of the 'big' reasons for the 6 wire mics, but they went out of business.
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Post by 2600 on Mar 7, 2024 6:43:31 GMT -5
Johnson was the only reason. Nobody else needed more than five wires. Johnson used a 5-pin plug and made the plug's metal body the sixth "pin". Transmit/receive switching was done by feeding 12 Volts DC up to the switch in the mike. Either the receiver or transmitter circuits would get power from the mike's PTT switch. The speaker got muted by the yellow wire, totally separate from the transmit/receive switch in the mike.
Far as I know, this was used only in 23-channel Johnson CB. By the time 40 channels came around, they cleaned up their act and simplified the mike wiring.
Mike cords with that sixth wire became a standard right around the time nobody needed it any more.
73
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Mar 9, 2024 8:22:40 GMT -5
And CBrown, does the PTT switch Connect a circuit for the mic, disconnect a circuit, or both? I'm starting to think maybe two simultaneous functions, hence the 2 grounds...disconnect audio and activate TX? There were some radios that required you to open (disconnect) the audio lead during receive, and that usually required another switch be added to the aftermarket microphone you were trying to attach. Most microphone manufactures either sold a switch kit for their mics (I know Turner did) and/or came up with a 6 wire microphone for those 'special' circumstances. I don't think any radio made after 1980 required the 6 wire mics. Johnson was one of the 'big' reasons for the 6 wire mics, but they went out of business. There were a bunch of radios made with "convoluted" mic wiring issues. Many (most?) Cybernet chassis radios wanted the audio lead opened on receive, which was fine on the Turner mobile mics, but not their base mics or the Astatic 4 wire D104. There were radios like the Lafayette Micro 723, which switched positive voltage instead of ground which required 5 wires to accomplish (hence the need for the 6 wire mic). And then there were the "impossible" radios, like the Realistic TRC-9 and TRC-11. At first glance you should be able to get away with a 6 wire mic (And it used all 6). But the standard 6 wire mic has isolated transmit/receive switching (Red, Blue, Black), with the yellow wire grounding on receive. But the TRC's used the yellow wire to switch 12V to the receiver. Yes, with some clever rewiring you could make it work, but not the way the mic came out of the box. These headaches really made you appreciate those wonderfully simple radios that only needed 3 wires to work......
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Post by cbrown on Mar 13, 2024 13:07:36 GMT -5
You know when you've wired too many mics to too many radio when you long for the days of the gold ol' Astatic G Stand.
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