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Post by homerbb on Jun 2, 2011 23:40:47 GMT -5
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Jun 3, 2011 7:01:16 GMT -5
Looks good, but I'm willing to bet it won't work as well as your Sigma 4 clone. I had an Astro Plane before I got the Sigma 4, and the AP performed worse than a standard 5/8 wave GP. The Sigma 4 was about 1 S-unit stronger than the 5/8th wave.
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Post by homerbb on Jun 3, 2011 7:10:40 GMT -5
I am inclined to agree with you. When I first started to make a sigma clone last year I had not gotten it together as well as it is now since redoing it. The result was that I felt the original Astroplane I had purchased was a better performer. I had mounted the Qv4k feedpoint at 36', and the Astroplane so that the top of it was at 54.5''. The top of both were respectively the Qv4k - 65', and the Astroplane 54.5'. I want to make comparisons again before the Astroplane clone goes to a friend who needs an antenna.
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Post by cbrown on Jun 3, 2011 9:45:41 GMT -5
Still, the Astroplane wasn't a bad performer. Going to take it to the next level and make an Astrobeam?
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Post by homerbb on Jun 3, 2011 10:00:02 GMT -5
Still, the Astroplane wasn't a bad performer. Going to take it to the next level and make an Astrobeam? Hmmm. maybe . . .
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Sandbagger
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Post by Sandbagger on Jun 3, 2011 11:50:08 GMT -5
I am inclined to agree with you. When I first started to make a sigma clone last year I had not gotten it together as well as it is now since redoing it. The result was that I felt the original Astroplane I had purchased was a better performer. I had mounted the Qv4k feedpoint at 36', and the Astroplane so that the top of it was at 54.5''. The top of both were respectively the Qv4k - 65', and the Astroplane 54.5'. I want to make comparisons again before the Astroplane clone goes to a friend who needs an antenna. Well, my findings, which admittedly were not scientific, but they were repeatable was that I "upgraded" from an original 1/2 wave Radio Shack "Super Maxim" antenna (17' high with 3 1/8th wave radials) mounted on 20' of steel mast, to the Astro Plane. Now, because of the design of the AP, I actually lost height, since most of the antenna hangs below the mount point. So that may have had some bearing on my results. I had 1 friend who was about 3/4 of a mile from me with an RF gain that he could roll back and give me a fine reading in signal. With the 1/2 wave antenna, I used to give him between a 1.5 and a 1.75 S-unit. The AP was between S1 and S1.5. The Hustler 5/8th wave I replaced the AP with (and still on the same mast, with the same radio and coax) would throw him between a S2.5 and S3. Then when I got the Sigma 4, that signal jumped again to close to S4. I'm sure the AP would have worked far better if I could have mounted it a full wavelength above the ground, but that was not in the cards back then. Still comparing different antennas has always piqued my curiosity. I've always wanted to set up an "antenna range" where a variety of antennas could be quickly set up and compared against each other to once and for all settle the question of which type of antennas work the best. But I'm also fairly sure that depending on the terrain and altitude, that the antenna which works best under one set of conditions will probably not be the antenna that works best under another set of conditions. But those are the mysteries of RF that make this hobby interesting.
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bluebird
Big Bucket Mouth
Posts: 94
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Post by bluebird on Jun 3, 2011 15:37:38 GMT -5
I am inclined to agree with you. When I first started to make a sigma clone last year I had not gotten it together as well as it is now since redoing it. The result was that I felt the original Astroplane I had purchased was a better performer. I had mounted the Qv4k feedpoint at 36', and the Astroplane so that the top of it was at 54.5''. The top of both were respectively the Qv4k - 65', and the Astroplane 54.5'. I want to make comparisons again before the Astroplane clone goes to a friend who needs an antenna. Well, my findings, which admittedly were not scientific, but they were repeatable was that I "upgraded" from an original 1/2 wave Radio Shack "Super Maxim" antenna (17' high with 3 1/8th wave radials) mounted on 20' of steel mast, to the Astro Plane. Now, because of the design of the AP, I actually lost height, since most of the antenna hangs below the mount point. So that may have had some bearing on my results. I had 1 friend who was about 3/4 of a mile from me with an RF gain that he could roll back and give me a fine reading in signal. With the 1/2 wave antenna, I used to give him between a 1.5 and a 1.75 S-unit. The AP was between S1 and S1.5. The Hustler 5/8th wave I replaced the AP with (and still on the same mast, with the same radio and coax) would throw him between a S2.5 and S3. Then when I got the Sigma 4, that signal jumped again to close to S4. I'm sure the AP would have worked far better if I could have mounted it a full wavelength above the ground, but that was not in the cards back then. Still comparing different antennas has always piqued my curiosity. I've always wanted to set up an "antenna range" where a variety of antennas could be quickly set up and compared against each other to once and for all settle the question of which type of antennas work the best. But I'm also fairly sure that depending on the terrain and altitude, that the antenna which works best under one set of conditions will probably not be the antenna that works best under another set of conditions. But those are the mysteries of RF that make this hobby interesting. i have a maco 5/8 wave that i bought brand new in box that is about 40 years old mounted on a 22'pipe that performs great talk dx bare foot
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Post by homerbb on Jun 3, 2011 16:27:57 GMT -5
Sandbagger, I think your findings were correct under the conditions of same mast height, etc. I found pretty much the same, until I moved the AP up from a mount point of 34' (where I lost overall height because of the AP's design) to top height of 54.5'. The little AP shown like a new penny! It was a sensational player. It is generally believed the Astroplane was designed to maximize the users reach at the legal top limit of sixty feet which wold put longer antennas down lower overall. Now, when the Qv4k has been mounted 13' off the ground, nothing else I've had that low touches it! Worked on it little more. I had the top bracket too wide, so I replaced it with sturdier aluminum stock (second u-clamp wasn't on it yet in the photo), and adjusted the width a little more at the mid bracket. SWR is closer now - on ch40 1.2:1 and on ch1 1.4:1. Getting there. I probably won't make this a keeper, just a for funner. I'll likely let it go to a friend for cost of parts. Just a little more . . .
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Post by homerbb on Jun 3, 2011 18:27:46 GMT -5
A little more tinkering done. SWR 1.1:1 at 40 and 1.
Some contacts a few minutes ago with bottom ring mounted 20' in the air.
3030 --------------------------------- 26.695 AM NC 7440 --------------------------------- 27.385 LSB WR077 ------------------------------ 27.385 LSB GA 206 ---------------------------------- 27.385 LSB TN 619 ---------------------------------- 27.385 LSB KY 662 ---------------------------------- 27.385 LSB Lake Erie Rusty Nail ------------------------- 27.125 AM
Others I didn't write down.
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Post by homerbb on Jun 3, 2011 21:43:14 GMT -5
cost of materials:
top hat rods ----------------- 4.00 aluminum plate ------------ 3.50 u-bolts ------------------------ 5.00 screws ----------------------- 0.75 PEX tube --------------------- 2.50 CPVC tubes ----------------- 4.65 CPVC tees ------------------- 2.00 Aluminum tape ------------- 2.00 3/8"x4' fb rod ----------------- 1.00 ________________________ total ---------------------------- 25.40
The center mast pipe is what ever mast you use. I already had it and the fellow who gets this antenna will get his own or pay me to replace the pipe i have.
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Post by homerbb on Jun 4, 2011 11:46:34 GMT -5
Set up outside under my umbrella (too #&*#$^@%$ hot otherwise) I put the MFJ209 and the frequency counter in line and this is what it says. 2.0:1 ------------------------ 29.695 1.0:1 ------------------------ 27.875 1.1:1 ------------------------ 27.405 1.2:1 ------------------------ 27.205 1.5:1 ------------------------ 26.695 2.0:1 ------------------------ 26.415 The setup testing:
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Jun 4, 2011 21:31:09 GMT -5
Set up outside under my umbrella (too #&*#$^@%$ hot otherwise) I put the MFJ209 and the frequency counter in line and this is what it says. 2.0:1 ------------------------ 29.695 1.0:1 ------------------------ 27.875 1.1:1 ------------------------ 27.405 1.2:1 ------------------------ 27.205 1.5:1 ------------------------ 26.695 2.0:1 ------------------------ 26.415 The setup testing: That's pretty broadbanded. Nice for 10 and 11 meters.
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Post by homerbb on Jun 4, 2011 22:54:31 GMT -5
I really got lucky on this one.
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Post by cbrown on Jun 6, 2011 8:49:10 GMT -5
That's pretty broadbanded. Nice for 10 and 11 meters. A 3 MHz 2.0 SWR curve is pretty damn good for a 27 MHz antenna. Sounds like you have a winning design, Homer. What's a rough estimate of the cost of putting one together?
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Post by homerbb on Jun 6, 2011 9:14:35 GMT -5
cost of materials: top hat rods ----------------- 4.00 aluminum plate ------------ 3.50 u-bolts ------------------------ 5.00 screws ----------------------- 0.75 PEX tube --------------------- 2.50 CPVC tubes ----------------- 4.65 CPVC tees ------------------- 2.00 Aluminum tape ------------- 2.00 3/8"x4' fb rod ----------------- 1.00 ________________________ total ---------------------------- 25.40 The center mast pipe is what ever mast you use. I already had it and the fellow who gets this antenna will get his own or pay me to replace the pipe i have. This is a rough cost with the materials I used. I could have missed something, but I don't think it would go over $10 higher unless you worked with Aluminum tubing or copper.
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Jun 6, 2011 11:15:29 GMT -5
cost of materials: top hat rods ----------------- 4.00 aluminum plate ------------ 3.50 u-bolts ------------------------ 5.00 screws ----------------------- 0.75 PEX tube --------------------- 2.50 CPVC tubes ----------------- 4.65 CPVC tees ------------------- 2.00 Aluminum tape ------------- 2.00 3/8"x4' fb rod ----------------- 1.00 ________________________ total ---------------------------- 25.40 The center mast pipe is what ever mast you use. I already had it and the fellow who gets this antenna will get his own or pay me to replace the pipe i have. This is a rough cost with the materials I used. I could have missed something, but I don't think it would go over $10 higher unless you worked with Aluminum tubing or copper. \ Ironically, I paid about $26 for my original Avanti version new in 1975.
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Post by homerbb on Jun 6, 2011 14:51:22 GMT -5
What a deal. . .
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Post by homerbb on Jun 6, 2011 22:54:54 GMT -5
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Post by cbrown on Jun 7, 2011 9:16:59 GMT -5
This is a rough cost with the materials I used. I could have missed something, but I don't think it would go over $10 higher unless you worked with Aluminum tubing or copper. That's pretty reasonable for today.
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Post by cbrown on Jun 7, 2011 9:29:09 GMT -5
Ironically, I paid about $26 for my original Avanti version new in 1975. Avanti antennas were actually pretty reasonable. I remember buying the AV-170, and then working cutting lawns so I could get the AV-146 for skip. And I was just a teen.
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Post by homerbb on Jun 7, 2011 17:57:25 GMT -5
Great lessons in responsibility, and great memories sometime run together.
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Jun 7, 2011 18:05:43 GMT -5
Ironically, I paid about $26 for my original Avanti version new in 1975. Avanti antennas were actually pretty reasonable. I remember buying the AV-170, and then working cutting lawns so I could get the AV-146 for skip. And I was just a teen. I once worked 13 hours straight at a mall carnival running rides at $2 an hour (under the table) to earn the money to buy the Hustler 5/8th wave I replaced my Astro Plane with. I was a mere 15 then. But if I wanted something, I had to work for it....
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Post by homerbb on Jun 7, 2011 20:55:19 GMT -5
I didn't get into radio until I was grown, but there are memories of working.
There were too many of us, and too little money most times. Daddy moonlighted his electricians skills, and when he did he charged for himself, and for his helper. Most often I was the helper. The companies we worked for cut two checks - for the journeyman, and the apprentice. I never saw any of those checks. I didn't expect to, nor was I disappointed. I loved my Dad, and my family, and the money belonged to all of us as my parents saw fit.
Later I'd work for and buy my own car. The wheels on it rolled only when I put gas in it. There was little enough time to play.
Before we were ten yrs old my brothers and I could look at a nut or bolt head and tell you its size from a 3/8" to a 7/8". These were the most common sizes on automobiles, and Daddy kept his old beaters on the road with constant work. I pulled and replaced more engines and transmissions before the age of 19 when I married than what most have done in a lifetime, and instead of playing after school we often had our instructions to replace brakes, or a water pump, and learned to carry points, a rotor cap, distributor caps, spark plugs, a coil, belts, and hoses in the car along with spare tires and a jack.
It was life, and work was our life line to tomorrow.
I wished to be like my Dad in many ways, and I observed early his hands were never still unless he slept. He was equally adept at prayer as he was at work, and both were the reflection of his character. What a man. And what an abundant life.
Sorry fellas. You got me thinkin'
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Jun 7, 2011 21:35:48 GMT -5
I didn't get into radio until I was grown, but there are memories of working. There were too many of us, and too little money most times. Daddy moonlighted his electricians skills, and when he did he charged for himself, and for his helper. Most often I was the helper. The companies we worked for cut two checks - for the journeyman, and the apprentice. I never saw any of those checks. I didn't expect to, nor was I disappointed. I loved my Dad, and my family, and the money belonged to all of us as my parents saw fit. Later I'd work for and buy my own car. The wheels on it rolled only when I put gas in it. There was little enough time to play. Before we were ten yrs old my brothers and I could look at a nut or bolt head and tell you its size from a 3/8" to a 7/8". These were the most common sizes on automobiles, and Daddy kept his old beaters on the road with constant work. I pulled and replaced more engines and transmissions before the age of 19 when I married than what most have done in a lifetime, and instead of playing after school we often had our instructions to replace brakes, or a water pump, and learned to carry points, a rotor cap, distributor caps, spark plugs, a coil, belts, and hoses in the car along with spare tires and a jack. It was life, and work was our life line to tomorrow. I wished to be like my Dad in many ways, and I observed early his hands were never still unless he slept. He was equally adept at prayer as he was at work, and both were the reflection of his character. What a man. And what an abundant life. Sorry fellas. You got me thinkin' Nothing wrong with retrospection. It's hard to understand where a person is at now, without understanding where they came from.
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Post by cbrown on Jun 8, 2011 9:07:29 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with retrospection. It's hard to understand where a person is at now, without understanding where they came from. Very well said, Sandbagger!
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Post by cbrown on Jun 8, 2011 9:27:09 GMT -5
There were too many of us, and too little money most times. I know what that is like, I'm one of twelve kids, and I'm the oldest boy. If I didn't earn it, I didn't get it. But it gave me great respect for things that I did get, especially if I bought them with my hard earned $$$. When I finally cut enough lawns to afford the Moonraker 6, the only rotor I could afford was a cheap Radio Shack TV rotor. So I set about getting the antenna built and getting ready for mounting on the roof. A local elderly guy (a ham radio guy) was walking by one day while I was prepping everything and wanted to take a look. He looked over the antenna and then saw the RS rotor. He told me I couldn't use a 'piece of $#it' (his words) like that with a beam antenna that big, and told me to hold on installing the antenna. The next day he came back with a Ham II rotor and control and told me to use that. I tried to pay him for the rotor, but he told me it was a old used one he had laying around that he didn't need any more. That rotor and control box was brand spanking new, even I could see it. That began a great friendship with my first 'elmer' that lasted until he passed away. He taught me many things. Memories.
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Post by homerbb on Jun 8, 2011 20:55:08 GMT -5
What a deal. There are wonderful gifts along the way sometimes. Too much is taken for granted, and real genuine pleasure can be found in simpler things than most folks are aware of. Your willingness to look beyond your lack of wealth, and a willingness to work for what you wanted brought you the gift that goes beyond what your money could buy. Friendship. It's a rare thing.
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Sandbagger
Administrator/The Boss
Posts: 6,247
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Post by Sandbagger on Jun 9, 2011 7:19:32 GMT -5
There were too many of us, and too little money most times. I know what that is like, I'm one of twelve kids, and I'm the oldest boy. If I didn't earn it, I didn't get it. But it gave me great respect for things that I did get, especially if I bought them with my hard earned $$$. When I finally cut enough lawns to afford the Moonraker 6, the only rotor I could afford was a cheap Radio Shack TV rotor. So I set about getting the antenna built and getting ready for mounting on the roof. A local elderly guy (a ham radio guy) was walking by one day while I was prepping everything and wanted to take a look. He looked over the antenna and then saw the RS rotor. He told me I couldn't use a 'piece of $#it' (his words) like that with a beam antenna that big, and told me to hold on installing the antenna. The next day he came back with a Ham II rotor and control and told me to use that. I tried to pay him for the rotor, but he told me it was a old used one he had laying around that he didn't need any more. That rotor and control box was brand spanking new, even I could see it. That began a great friendship with my first 'elmer' that lasted until he passed away. He taught me many things. Memories. Great story of how you met your Elmer. I've known similar people in my younger days. But the mental picture of you trying to use a Radio Shack TV rotor to turn a Moonraker 6 is priceless.... ;D I've had people cringe when I used them on simple 3 element beams, but mine had a thrust bearing, so it never had any problems.
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Post by cbrown on Jun 10, 2011 10:27:52 GMT -5
I was replacing a Moonraker 4 that had been destroyed in a hurricane. I used a RS rotor for that, which worked okay. But when I went to replace the 4 with the 6, I figured I could get away with the same rotor.
I was just a dumb kid and knew nothing about wind loading and such.
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Post by homerbb on Jun 10, 2011 11:24:15 GMT -5
I've got a radio shack rotor that once turned a 2el Quad. I may try it on my 4el Yagi. Got the Atroplane above the Yagi for a workout. To the tip-top it is 57' To the coax connection it is 53' To the bottom ring it is 45.5'
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